My car is the only thing I have that someone might concievably try to take by force

“But I think you’re far more susceptible to the rationalizations of your desired conclusions than most.”

Oh, I don’t expect to sway anybody one way or another on issues like this. Really, it’s more a matter of A.) Having fun swatting at the beehive and B.) Establishing as a matter of record (and personal validation) that when THIS particular fight over rights was going down, I was on the side that got soaked rather than the side that worked the firehoses. I so seldom actually get to be the good guy, I like to enjoy it when I can.

The plain fact is, the two sides here (and however you want to parse it with “marriage no, unions yes” or “I’m REALLY just mad about lawmaking procedure” at the end of the day there really are ONLY two sides) largely at an impasse if not outright arguing past one-another. Those against Prop 8 and it’s attendant philosophy are, for the most part, on the side of reason, practicality and the REAL situations of and effects upon REAL people. Those FOR it - whatever some of them are they’re telling themselves to help with the whole sleeping/looking-in-the-mirror thing - are acting not out of logic or rationality but out of concerns for ephemeral philosophical concerns like “society,” “community,” “values,” and the most vaporous and irrelevant of all “belief.”

“The Almighty Turtle) that they voted the right way and they will never change it future.”

Well, I appreciate the sentiment, but their behavior will almost certainly not alter my vote whatsoever. My main issue regarding Prop 8 was the government fiat overruling the will of the Churches in a private religious matter. That issue is what caused me to vote yes on Prop 8 and will cause me to shoot down any similar attempts by EITHER side to get the government to strongarm their opponents.

Personally, it is my opinion that the Churches and the SSM advocates sit down and hammer out a compromise on the issue.

That being said, that doesn’t mean my opinion has completely been unaltered, as the thuggish behavior of some Prop 8 opponents is certainly undermining their moral credit on the issue. Will that change affect my vote? No. But it will affect my perception and position of the talks and the Prop 8 opponent’s place in such.

I’m afraid your histrionics continue. Gay marriage and car ownership? Really? That’s the best metaphor you could come up? Wouldn’t it have been better to wait 30 seconds and come up with something else?

To use your car metaphor, it’s more akin to someone giving you a car, only to discover it wasn’t their car to give to you and now you’re throwing a temper-tantrum screaming, “but he gave it to me.”

(This is not to suggest that your car metaphor was anything but horrible, by the way)

You want to argue semantics as to whether something was “taken” from , that’s fine, but as usual you’re arguing in your own little world and judging how convincing you are based on your ability to convince yourself.

But I think you’re far more susceptible to the rationalizations of your desired conclusions than most.

Not to mention I never like the insincere, “yes, they’re acting horrible’ followed by the “but they have a right to be”.

As I write this, I ask myself why the hell I even have these conversations with you. You always defend any remark you make no matter how ill-considered or off the mark. It’s just a long drawn our exchange that goes nowhere.

I’ve been known to do some pretty harsh things when I’ve been wronged, so I really can’t tell you definatively. AGAIN, I’m not saying I’m “down” with the actions, just that I’m not going to pretend like I don’t get where it’s coming from. This has ceased to be a philosophical/legal debate - it’s a FIGHT now, and the people having a cow right now are only reacting to a first punch thrown at them.

Tommy
“But this notion that something was TAKEN from them is a little over dramatic. One of, if the not the primary debate, was whether the courts had the power and the right to do what they did. People in California said they did not.”

But that’s the problem… They didn’t merely go to the polls and vote to slap the courts on the wrist and say “naughty judges, don’t do that again!” This wasn’t an opinion poll, it was an ammendment with real reprecussions for the people involved. And regardless of whether or not you ever agreed with them having the right, they DID have it and now they don’t. Plenty of people probably don’t think I “deserve” to have my car, but if they try and take it from me there’s gonna be a scuffle.

Civil Unions was California State Law before Same-Sex Marriage was forced down Californians throats by FOUR judges. And it is still California State Law. Proposition 8 did nothing to change that.

And claiming that you have friends that disagree with you does nothing to ameliorate the fact that these liberal fascists are killing the careers of people who hold differing political beliefs.

Whenever I read something like, “I condemn such acts without reservation. However…

I know that I am going to get some ridiculous rationalization for the acts that that person just said they condemned.

And that is exactly what we got in comment #19. “Until your gay acquaintances finally had enough of your parsing, this was all an academic/philosophical thing for YOUR side - you were never gaining or losing anything.”

Translation, “All of those who voted for Prop 8 deserve to lose your livelihood, business, career, freedom to go wherever and whenever you choose without being molested, because “your gay acquaintances finally had enough”.

To paraphrase: “First they came for the Jews, and I justified it because I didn’t like the Jews either.”

That´s some deadly sarcasm there, maatkare.

Joe Marino, I’m simply stating that blacks didn’t wake up in 1965 and decided things needed changing. It’s been an ongoing process that peaked with the Civil Rights movement, but blacks were fighting for freedom since American’s birth. (re-read that ragged Frederick Douglass autobiography you haven’t cracked since grade school. )

Anyway, I hope the protesters turn their energy towards helping the fire victims in SoCal this weekend.

We’re kind of on the same side here, as I’m for gay marriage and would have voted against Prop 8 if I still lived in LA…

But this notion that something was TAKEN from them is a little over dramatic. One of, if the not the primary debate, was whether the courts had the power and the right to do what they did. People in California said they did not.

Homosexuals did not have the right to marriage for their lifetime and then suddenly lost it.

They had it for a few months and they knew it was tenuous at best and that the court had likely over-reached.

I think voting for Prop 9 was going to have some blowback and I believe gays need to fight for their rights because it’s clear they’re not recognized as rights by the general population…

But I am very uncomfortable with the actions of the last week. Good people can disagree on this issue because there is serious dispute on the legal status of homosexuality, and gays consistently seem to be their own worst enemy in the PR department.

I am convinced that the San Francisco teacher who had her students attend her lesbian wedding was the death blow to gay marriage this time around.

I think gay marriage will be far more likely when the gay community shows that it will respect the feelings of those who would like it to remain a mature subject for adults, and not some invasion into the culture trying to make up for lost time and age-old hostility.

The recent actions I’m afraid will do even more damage than that teacher.