“Hobbit” Director: America Kills Children And Rapes Continents
Posted by Dirty Harry on Saturday, August 16th, 2008
“American theatres in the South rejected the first movie, refused to play it, because the word ‘hell’ was in the title,” he says. “Other theatres in the South changed the title on the marquee from Hellboy to Hello Boy, and Heck Boy.”
He thought when he was pitching Hellboy II: The Golden Army that people would be less sensitive, but not so. “We actually went back to discussing, ‘Can it not be called Hellboy?’ Again!” he exclaims, aghast.
“I find it really puzzling that we are not prudish about the deforestation of the Earth, bombing other countries, killing children, raping entire continents, but we are prudish about one word.”
Of course Guillermo del Toro is wrong, but he certainly believes his anti-American rant and yet whorishly remains in this country practicing a trade he’s over-praised for and grubbing all of the American lucre he can get his pale, soft hands on.
This is a man with no principles whatsoever. In his own mind, he lives off the fat of a country that rapes continents and kills children. I’m curious how he separates himself from Leni Riefenstahl.
Filed in General |
Troyon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:03 pm 1I’d go one further and call “Bullshit” on his Heckboy theater marquee in the South. Even if there was one — he makes it sound like across the South folks were getting the hives over the word “Hell”. Having been a Southern Baptist for over 35 years…. “Hell” — especially in reference to the “place” — is not something even the most ardent fundamentalist Baptist (i.e. — the people who shoulder a lot of the Katrina burden) wouldn’t have much problem with. Add Liar to hypocrite.
To check — I’ll do a Nexis search and I’m prepared to be proven wrong, but not likely.
Kendamaon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:13 pm 2Remind me not to watch one of this guy’s movies.
JLon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:20 pm 3It’s obvious. Guillermo feels that the more people like him live here the better off this country will become. He’s staying to help change our repugnant country and give us all hope by his example. Hope & change!
JLon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:22 pm 4“Hellboy made a combined profit of around $90 million theatrically and on DVD”
Just goes to show you how little there is to watch.
Stephanieon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:31 pm 5What a jackass……..hey Giulliermo BITE ME!
Kenn Christensonon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:31 pm 6MAN - wish I’d known that before I bought Pan’s Labyrinth - No I didn’t buy it because the commies were the good guys. I bought it because despite del Toro’s greatest efforts, he couldn’t squelch what was, essentially, a Christian message of sacrifice to save others.
mjkon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:33 pm 7“I find it really puzzling that we are not prudish about the deforestation of the Earth, bombing other countries, killing children, raping entire continents, but we are prudish about one word.”
I’ve never understood why a person would say that and yet stay in America. If you honestly, honestly believe that, you little puss, get out now.
And if we’re talking about “bombing other countries and killing children”, perhaps he’d like to talk trash about terrorists instead. They are prudish about one word, but if you denegrate the Koran or make fun of Mohammed, you’re down for the count.
Idiot.
Kenn Christensonon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:37 pm 8They don’t speak out about the REAL killers, because Americans won’t come to their homes and slit their throats. They are cowards, plain and simple!
Kenn Christensonon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:39 pm 9I wonder how del Toro will twist “The Hobbit” to fit his world view?
Kendamaon 16 Aug 2008 at 6:50 pm 10I don’t know about the Hobbit, but there is this:
www (dot) youtube (dot) com/watch?v=gbsLTAO7Ra8
Fellowship 9/11. It’s quite funny.
Gilzillaon 16 Aug 2008 at 7:06 pm 11Lobelia Sackville-Baggins could kick this guy’s ass. I wish she would. We don’t need the Hobbit being directed by a friggin idiot like this guy. I swear I wish I could sit down with these o-so-knowledgable hollywood types and show them the third world that I have seen. I have been to over 40 countries in my life and I was born in and lived in Dallas during high school and went to a Bible Belt Christian HS that did cross the line with the no dancing no R-rated movies type morality code. But, I never heard anyone stressing about the word “Hell”. These guys just flat out lie about whatever comes to mind to make Christians, who actually stand up for things like saving people from ruthless killers saving the unborn and teaching people respect for each other and the earth, look bad. Why can’t they just shut up and go back to Spain. By the way Spanish people way to show respect for the Chinese by having your basketball team pose in a magazine doing the five year old squinty eyed china man pose. Just be glad it wasn’t a video shoot they were probably singing, “we are chi-a-nese if you please we are chi-a-nese if you don;t please.” Shut the F(^$ up del taco!!!
eeyoreon 16 Aug 2008 at 7:12 pm 12A google search of news sites and only one comes up with this information, the Scotsman that is running the story of what del Toro says. No other news in the country has reported this as first-hand knowledge this is happening.
Now there are several web sites that call it Hello Boy or Heck Boy but some of these are places for the movie to be downloaded.
Another article says he received a polaroid picture of the renaming. Well that is not evidence of anything. Marquees are changed as pranks all of the time. I remember seeing one in 1986 that was showing Head Wish III (Death Wish III) and Spit Like Us (Spies Like Us) at the drive-in. I don’t think the owner made that mistake.
Jimboon 16 Aug 2008 at 7:30 pm 13Before I would have defending him because I will admitt I liked his movies. However such a disgusting statement is simply undefensible. Such anti-American hatred is beyond low especially for a guy who markets his movies to us Americans. While I can’t say I will boycott The Hobbit I can say that it makes me less likely to watch his films
Plissken79on 16 Aug 2008 at 8:18 pm 14At the risk of sounding cruel, Del Toro is far too fat to ever criticize any society for over-indulgence. But this statement is not surprising, given his pro-Communist Spanish Civil War film Pan’s Labrynth. Remember the mantra of the left, no country is to be more hated than the United States of America, no cause more sacred than that which is dedicated to its destruction, whether Soviet Communism in the Cold War or Islamic fundamentalism now
Billon 16 Aug 2008 at 8:35 pm 15As others have shown above, if there really were marquee signs changed, wouldn’t we have heard more about it? Wouldn’t CNN and their ilk have treated this as a Major News Story and covered it from beginning to end? People like this seem to forget we live in an age where things like this can actually be disproven a lot more easily than in the past.
StevefromMKEon 16 Aug 2008 at 8:51 pm 16Actually Guillermo, “deforestation” comes from the making way for land to make the precious ethanol that’s being forced down our throats.
trzupron 16 Aug 2008 at 9:07 pm 17I don’t know (nor much care) about the rest of the world, but here are the figure for the United States:
Forested Land, 1945: 650 million acres.
Forested Land, 2008: 884 million acres.
We’re doing fine, and so are the shows.
Cheers,
R
Dennis Mahonon 16 Aug 2008 at 9:10 pm 18Given that the majority of deforestation is going on in South America, why does he direct his vitriol towards the US, which is located in North America?
(Oh, who am I kidding; as if deforestation is really something he cares about…)
jack Marinoon 16 Aug 2008 at 9:23 pm 19This is just another untalented ego out of control.. is there no humility in this business anymore?
MovieBobon 16 Aug 2008 at 9:26 pm 20Three points:
1.) Del Toro is a Spainiard, so I don’t see him under any special obligation to speak with great deference toward the U.S. These things cut both ways: If I’m ‘allowed’ to joke about the French being, well… the French; or offer the opinion that Spain was behaving in a manner that could be described as cowardly in withdrawing from Iraq in the wake of the Madrid bombings (which does, in fact, happen to be my opinion) I’m more-or-less inclined to extend him the same allowance. Agree or disagree, I don’t find his opinion especially outrageous relative to some others.
2.) Since he doesn’t identify any specific nation in that part of his little rant, isn’t it a bit self-centered to assume he’s talking about YOU? Europeans are kinda reflexively self-loathing about issues of the environment/colonialism late these last few decades, so it’s entirely likely he’s being pretty broad in this case. He also has more than a little of a point: Issues like what he mentions are on TV and in the news 24/7 without any regard for warning, so next to that the notion that “Hellboy” is an edgy title is pretty foolish.
3.) Interesting that the rather Conservative-friendly second part of this statement is left out: “”It’s almost like good manners at Hitler’s table in today’s politics,” he says. “There is a politically correct fascism racing on the horizon in Europe and America, everywhere, and it’s very disturbing.” — del Toro.
Dirty Harryon 16 Aug 2008 at 9:34 pm 21Bob he’s talking about American theatres in the south and American movie companies he’s pictching the sequel to. The country he’s referring to is obviously ours and you know it. What other country would he be talking about?
Is playing unforgivably stupid the new debating tactic with liberals…? Because it’s been happening an awful lot around here lately.
You and abe should get together for an “Obtuse-Off.”
And it really is more proof that under no circumstance will a liberal defend America. Bob would prefer to play dumb than defend his own country from vicious lies and outright defamation. Stunning.
Bob writes: “Del Toro is a Spainiard, so I don’t see him under any special obligation to speak with great deference toward the U.S.” — Well, how about him not lying and defaming the U.S.? Is he under any obligation not to do that?
Really, Bob, this guy accuses us of raping continents. What does someone have to say about this country for you to defend it? And, yes, as a matter of fact I am questioning your patriotism.
Plissken79on 16 Aug 2008 at 10:09 pm 22Del Toro is a Mexican, not a Spainiard, MovieBob, so you may want to rewrite that cute analysis of yours. Mexico is not a part of Europe, and since it has few forests to cut down, I do not think he was referring to his own country
Audietooon 16 Aug 2008 at 10:26 pm 23Why doesn’t Del Toro take his movie making mess to Mexico and hire some local nationals at a living wage so they don’t have to come here to get on the gravy train the way he has.
Thank God horror and fantasy are not my cup of tea so I have so far as I know never seen a movie by him. But I did want to see the Hobbit.
Damn, when will these p***** learn to keep their mouth shut.
JimmyCon 16 Aug 2008 at 10:32 pm 24Am I the only one that noticed that the villain of Hellboy 2’s only justification for wanting to commit genocide against the human race was that we build shopping malls, and yet the movie viewed him in an unmistakably sympathetic light? Hmm…
mrpitheron 16 Aug 2008 at 10:55 pm 25“Marquees are changed as pranks all of the time. I remember seeing one in 1986 that was showing Head Wish III (Death Wish III) and Spit Like Us (Spies Like Us) at the drive-in. I don’t think the owner made that mistake.”
Heh. A little off topic, but in the early 1980’s I was Asst Mgr of a theatre (yeah, we spelled it “re”) and were showing “Where the Buffalo Roam.” I came in one Sunday morning to get ready for the afternoon showing to find last word changed to what bears do in the woods. I laughed, but then had to scrample up the marquee sign to change it back.
Carloson 16 Aug 2008 at 11:35 pm 26And it really is more proof that under no circumstance will a liberal defend America.
In fact, as someone who grew up in a Liberal home and has considered himself a Liberal for virtually all of my adult life and associated almost exclusively with Liberals, I don’t remember EVER seeing a Liberal stick up for his country. This is not hyperbole or exagerration. Liberals DO NOT stick up for America. EVER. And don’t let them tell you otherwise. I’ve had an insider’s view of Liberalism virtually all of my life.
James Frazieron 16 Aug 2008 at 11:49 pm 27Ever see “Pan’s Labyrinth?” What a piece of rancid garbage. For my money, easily the most overrated movie of all time, for more reasons than I care to list at this moment.
Ever watch the special features on the “Blade Runner:The Final Cut” DVD? This guy is on there, and is a completely insufferable twerp during his brief moments.
Carolynon 16 Aug 2008 at 11:49 pm 28GO, Harry! There’s nothing I like better than seeing you give the slapdown to an idiot who richly deserves it.
Excuse me, an UNPATRIOTIC idiot who richly deserves it!
Carolynon 16 Aug 2008 at 11:57 pm 29“I think being a monster, and accepting that you are a monster, gives you the leeway to not behave like one.”
As the friend of a woman who was raped, as an American who’s watched pictures of Daniel Pearl’s severed head and of weeping Iraqis digging their families’ bodies out of Saddam’s mass graves, I can only warn del Toro NOT to spout that garbage while standing close to me. Because if he does, I will give myself the leeway to behave exactly like a monster and chase his fat ass back to Mexico.
Steve M.on 17 Aug 2008 at 12:00 am 30Rural Arkansas here. Movie came out as Hellboy. No changes.
Next.
Anaon 17 Aug 2008 at 1:16 am 31Que comemierda!
jack Marinoon 17 Aug 2008 at 2:16 am 32The only children America kills is from liberals that pass Roe vs wade. Liberals are the killers of children not America. What country did we rape? Was this after the American taxpayer fixed, feed and modernize the world of ingrates. Why can’t I meet an asshole like him in person on a film set? He can always give up all his stinking American money and direct films in pesos for the same amount a day that illegals work in the vineyards for.
Who is this fat piece of human tripe and why doesn’t anyone call him out and nail his ass to the ground. He pisses on the land that feeds him. This is why I have never worked in the business or ever be apart of it. If I sat at a table with him and he opened his mouth, we would be in a fist fight and he would get a real beating from a crazy Irishman.
This stuff needs to be put in films and show these animals for what they are.
Conan O'Lenomanon 17 Aug 2008 at 2:45 am 33Del Toro: What a retard–oops! Can someone please check his papers?
Jasonon 17 Aug 2008 at 5:20 am 34I didn’t know that Del Toro was a left wing nut job. My excitement for the Hobbit has just plummeted to zero. I’m no longer interested in seeing anything that Del Toro makes.
What a hypocritical loser.
Stephanieon 17 Aug 2008 at 5:39 am 35The Hobbit was my favorite book by far. Thanks Del Toro ya friggen idiot. I don’t need to see it. He should be beaten with his own arm.
Matt Helmon 17 Aug 2008 at 6:45 am 36He certainly lives up to his name, which translates as, “of the bull.”
ArchiCrashon 17 Aug 2008 at 6:48 am 37But….wouldn’t not raping other continents be a sign of racism? Because we think them unworthy of raping? C’mon, leftists, pick a narrative and stick to it!
Kendama: I remember that video. And I remember that I laughed way to hard at “Minas Flint.”
CopperheadLXXIXon 17 Aug 2008 at 7:58 am 38His stupid comments aside, I love his work, and if I decided to avoid every film based on the personal politics of the director, I probably wouldn’t see a whole lot of movies. So del Toro can keep his retarded opinions, just so long as they don’t creep too much into his work and he continues to make films I enjoy.
jicon 17 Aug 2008 at 8:08 am 39MovieBob has a slight point, as I think the ‘damage control’ on this will be that del Toro was talking about all of humanity, not just America. That is supported by his use of “we”, but is countered by the context of his statement. That is, assuming that he was quoted correctly by The Scotsman, which we shouldn’t take as a given. His people may also try to claim that he misspoke because he wasn’t speaking in his first language. That’s definitely a possibility, but I’ve seen interviews with del Toro, and he speaks excellent English.
Assuming that del Toro was quoted correctly and in context, and did mean what he seems to mean, it’s strange that celebrities seem to think that statements made in other countries won’t find their way back to America (especially if that statement is made in English!). That’s how The Dixie Chicks got caught out, too.
Jasonon 17 Aug 2008 at 8:46 am 40CopperheadLXXIX, I agree to an extent but there are some liberal left wing haters, (i.e. Glover, Clooney, Penn, and the like) that I have been boycotting for years and I’m proud of it. Loonies like these have no problems with telling people like me that we’re morons and if that’s how they feel about it, I have no problem with saying “NO” to their films. None of my money is going to support someone that hates on me like these hollywierdos do. Del Toro has just joined their club. I never liked his movies anyway, TBH. I don’t own any of them and now that I know what he thinks about people like me, I’m glad that I never bought any.
CopperheadLXXIXon 17 Aug 2008 at 9:59 am 41Jason,
I can understand your point of view since you didn’t like his films to begin with, but at the same time, I’m not going to suddenly use Pan’s Labyrinth, The Devil’s Backbone, Mimic, Hellboy and Blade II as frisbees because he was reported to have said something I disagree with.
At the same time, I’m certainly not against personal boycotts of people or products that go *way* beyond the pale. You mentioned Glover or Penn, which are good examples of that. I stopped drinking Absolut Vodka because of their ad showing Mexico owning most of the Southwestern US-But the difference there is that there are a lot of good vodka brands to choose from, but there is only one del Toro. Of course, that doesn’t mean much for those that don’t like his work I guess.
Outlaw 13on 17 Aug 2008 at 10:53 am 42Well, Copperhead we certainly wouldn’t want you to have to go without your del Toro.
My question would be, at what point to you say this person has said or done enough to warrant not being a customer of theirs anymore?
My threshold may be a lot wider than others. For instance I have never and will never watch, rent, own a movie, video or any other type of product that Jane Fonda may derive some sort of monetary gain from.
Just a little rule I have.
I don’t care if no one else shares that view, or if they think I’m dumb for doing it, it’s something that I do personally because of what she did during the Vietnam War.
Mr. del Toro’s remarks (assuming they are accurate) are misinformed and ridiculous in my opinion. I may or may not choose to give his products my patronage in the future based on those comments. If there are doubts about whether I should see anything he produces, I would default to the NO position based on his actions. Obviously he doesn’t care if people might make these judgements…but my value system is not based on what others think.
My 2 cents, for what its worth.
CopperheadLXXIXon 17 Aug 2008 at 1:10 pm 43Outlaw,
To answer your question, I would draw the line at what I would consider traitorous behavior-I also avoid anything that Jane Fonda has had a hand in for the exact same reasons you do. Glover and Penn kissing up to Chavez comes to mind as well.
Generic liberal silliness on the other hand usually just causes me to roll my eyes and move on. If I can deal with it coming from friends, I can deal with it coming from some director.
And in all honesty, reading back over the quote, it just sounds like del Toro is saying “Why should anyone care about H E double hockey sticks appearing on posters and billboards when there are much bigger problems out there?” That doesn’t seem like an unreasonable point, he just could have worded it much more tactfully.
GMKon 17 Aug 2008 at 2:18 pm 44He’s just the usual narcissist, they’re all like this, famous or not. He’s thwarted in something he wants, so he throws out wild-eyed abuse in a silly verbal tantrum. If his dad had taken the last of the mashed potatoes at dinner and he’d wanted more, he’d throw out something similar. It doesn’t have to make sense, he’s simply a malignant pile of shit like Michael Moore and a million others. There are way too many of these people in general, but there’s a pandemic of them in Hollywood. You can go ahead and pick apart his reasoning but all he was really doing was lashing out like the six-year-old he is on the inside.
It is the duty of all of us to bring the maximum possible pain to people like this that we possibly can.
Katoon 17 Aug 2008 at 7:00 pm 45I don’t know why anybody is surprised. He’s been spouting left-wing nonsense for years. Aside from being a rotten (if beautifully shot) film, Pan’s Labyrinth was a paean to the Communists who tried to take over Spain. Conservatives who liked the movie went through all sorts of convolutions attempting to explain away the obvious allusions. When del Toro was tapped to direct The Hobbit, a little part of me died inside.
00smoothieon 17 Aug 2008 at 7:01 pm 46MovieBob: I have to politely disagree with your commentary.
Del Toro is a Mexican, not a Spaniard, so you might want to rethink your point #2. I can’t recall anyone ever accusing the Mexicans of being “reflexively self-loathing” about colonialism or the environment.
Furthermore, I don’t understand how you can argue he’s not talking about America in his “raping” comment:
“I find it really puzzling that we are not prudish about the deforestation of the Earth, bombing other countries, killing children, raping entire continents, but we are prudish about one word.”
He’s just said that the ones who are prudish about “one word” are the southern Americans. So how likely is it that–in the same sentence–”we” could mean a generalized Mexican raping of the continent, and later in the same sentence “we” suddnely reverts back to meaning southern Americans?
Further, it’s one thing to make comments about the French from America or the Americans from Mexico, but it’s another matter entirely if I as a native of country A go to country C and make derogatory comments about Country B. For example, if I as an American went to Edinburgh (the dateline on the story implies that the interview took place in Edinburgh) and made derogatory comments about Mexicans I doubt I would be well received. In fact, I’m pretty sure I’d be called an “ugly American”.
Dirty Harry’s Place… » That Old Chestnut: My “Pan’s Labyrinth” Reviewon 17 Aug 2008 at 7:30 pm 47[…] honor of Guillermo del HateAmerica (as he will forever be called from here on in) baring his HateAmerican soul, this felt like a good […]
JohnFNWayneon 17 Aug 2008 at 8:13 pm 48I’m anxiously waiting for Movie Bob to make his re-appearance to express what the situation he would actually defend his country. I can’t wait.
MovieBobon 17 Aug 2008 at 9:48 pm 49JohnFNWayne,
I defend my country when she is in danger, or has been wronged. This meets neither of those standards. I don’t regard people with whom I disagree as evil, or automatic enemies - they’re just WRONG
misanthropicuson 17 Aug 2008 at 10:55 pm 50Lefty crap - commies murdered dramatically more than the republicans in the Civil War in Spain yet the lefties keep yakking (and boy, do they have support in the Academia) about that sinister farce directed by Stalin. All day long you hear about Guernica - but what about the Soviets in Spain?
Or Hemingway - but what about Orwell’s “Homage to Catalonia”?
wfon 18 Aug 2008 at 3:46 am 51Let´s take del Toro´s statement at face value: unless the raping of continents stops and “we” become total pacifists we cannot afford any standards of decency whatsoever. Apart from the anti-Americanism, that is completely nonsensical.
By the same logic I should be allowed to crap on his doorstep and spit on his children every day.
He should have just said that objecting to the word “Hell” in the title was silly, but when has a leftwinger ever refrained from using foul language or retarded analogies?
Full Metal Deer Platoonon 18 Aug 2008 at 6:26 am 52Is it too late to get the main character in “American Carol” to speak with a bad Mexican accent?
Jim Dunnon 18 Aug 2008 at 7:49 am 53Lifelong resident of the South, pop culture geek, voracious reader: I’ve never heard of anything like this happening, and I refuse to believe his claim until I sees me some documentation. As they say on Fark, pictures/link or it didn’t happen.
Rufus Vs. The Daily Headlines » When Art Imitates Art - [Rufus]on 18 Aug 2008 at 7:56 am 54[…] The boss’s post on the main page spawned some interesting debate about artists whose opinions one disagrees with and whether one separates those opinions from their work. […]
Splashon 18 Aug 2008 at 10:54 am 55“I wonder how del Toro will twist “The Hobbit” to fit his world view?”
I’ll tell you exactly how. Remember the Rankin-Bass animated version? As I recall, this was a Vietnam era production, and Thorin’s dying comments about war were easily framed as an endorsement of pacifism. Given the fact that The Hobbit’s climactic battle in part stems from the Dwarves’ greed regarding the Arkenstone (read: “oil” if you’re a liberal), it won’t be too difficult to liberalize this film.
I believe producer Peter Jackson is smart enough to prevent politics from rearing its ugly head here. He’s shown a commitment to the integrity of the source material with LOTR. But if he chooses choose to interpret pacifism as being faithful to the source material, it could happen.
Thank God we were all still relatively united against the enemy while they were finishing TTT and ROTK (DVD commentary suggests they tweaked a line or two to back the War on Terror). Who knows what travesties might have ensued if the whole project had started any later.
WHAT WOULD TOTO WATCH? » Ketchup time Ketchup time — WHAT WOULD TOTO WATCH?on 19 Aug 2008 at 7:05 am 56[…] Guillermo del Toro reveals he’s as ugly as some of his most unsavory characters with these awful quotes. (hat tip: Dirty […]
Andreaon 19 Aug 2008 at 8:17 am 57DEPORT THIS TRASH! NOW!
Who does he think he is? Get out of MY COUNTRY!
Go Home!
Billon 19 Aug 2008 at 9:44 am 58The funniest thing about this whole thread is someone claiming that Peter Jackson was true to the source material in Lord of the Rings, despite the fact that he cut whatever characters he felt like, changed who killed the head Nazgul, added a scene where a Ringwraith sees Frodo with the ring in Osgiliath, and didn’t pay even basic attention to the fact that once Sauron knows the ring is past Minas Tirith, he would figure out it was headed to be destroyed. The Lord of the Rings were terrible movies. Get over it.
As for The Hobbit, since it was written by an Englishman, it seems strange for American to attempt to maintain some claim over it. Remember, the author’s son has consistently fought against these movies being made and released, but to no avail.
As to the point at hand, Del Toro is one of the finest directors working in film today, if not the finest. His political views are unimportant, as are the political views of all great filmmakers. One of the greatest films of all time, The Battleship Potemkin, is pro-Soviet. Olympia and Triumph of the Will are both fantastic films made by a fantastic director, regardless of being pro-Nazi. Asking directors to not have and voice political opinions (as Del Toro does in both The Devil’s Backbone and Pan’s Labyrinth) is a copout. It’s asking that consumers not be required to think critically about their entertainment. He’s not marketing these movies to children, so the only ones watching them should be those capable of thinking for themselves.
I am an archconservative, certainly further to the right than any political party in America, but in keeping with that I defend the rights of people to make movies and say stupid things. And I will continue to watch the films of directors such as Eisenstein and Wajda, knowing full well that they are Communist propaganda. I challenge other conservatives to do the same, rather than cede the culture war by withdrawing.
Del Toro is a magnificent director, and certainly is one of the few who displays actual imagination anymore. I am more than willing to celebrate his gifts even as I bemoan his faults, without giving undue precedence to either.
Plissken79on 19 Aug 2008 at 10:14 am 59Bill, have you seen a film by Wajda? It requires a very vivid imagination to consider Man of Marble, Man of Iron, or Katyn to be Communist propaganda. Del Toro can say whatever he likes, that does not mean we have to approve of it or that we do not have to watch his films if his views offend us. Criticism of an opinion does not equal censorship. No one on this thread has suggested Del Toro does not have a right to his opinions.
You are dead wrong on the Lord of the Rings films, as if I few nitpicks make them “terrible films” give me a break. Eowyn did kill the head Nazgul, by the way (with a little help from Merry). Read the book again, assuming you ever did.
Also, Battleship Potemkin and Triumph of the Will are brilliant propaganda, not brilliant cinema. Bolshevism and Nazism as ideologies were incapable of allowing artisitc works that did glorify the regime
Billon 19 Aug 2008 at 12:08 pm 60Plissken,
I was specifically referring to many of Wajda’s early films, such as Pokolenie (which has traditional Agitprop propagandan images and language), while recognizing that he moved away from such imagery when he could in later films. His later films you referenced did in fact oppose Communism, once the tide of culture had moved that way.
As for a few nitpicks, it would take pages and pages to detail all the problems with the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The first movie alone would take paragraphs. But to address your one particular point (since you didn’t even bother trying to address the others), it is more than a little help from Merry. It is specifically stated that it is Merry’s sword that kills the Nazgul, the sword given to him after it was found in the Barrow Downs, that allowed the Nazgul to be killed, because he had forged that very sword when he was human. Compare this to the feminist version in the movie, where she can kill the Nazgul because no man can kill him, but a woman can. Utter ridiculousness, and only necessary because they cut the entirety of the Barrow Downs sequence from the films (in addition to cutting most of the Lothlorien sequence, the entirety of the confrontation with Saruman, the Scouring of the Shire, all the songs and poetry). Also in keeping the feminist agenda of the films, they had Arwen be the one to confront the Nazgul at the river while bearing Frodo to Rivendell, rather than Glorfindel. The character of Gollum was changed for the worse, from a figure of menace to a joke, the eye of Saruman became a glorified lighthouse, the Dunedain were all but omitted, an additional scene with Aragorn was added when Frodo chooses to leave the rest of the Fellowship. The character of Gimli was turned into a joke, instead of the incredible warrior he is in the books, where he can compete in a killing competition with Legolas. Seriously, you can go on for hours about the omissions and additions to the film, and not even get around to addressing the difference in feel between the books and the movie, but perhaps this has already grown boring. Perhaps it is you who has not read the book enough times. I have read it once a year for my entire life.
As for the claim that criticism of an opinion does not equal censorship, I did not argue that it does. I simply encouraged people to continue to give his movies a chance, instead of making a blanket decision without judging them on their artistic merits, which is what film is about. Just as you and I can disagree on the quality of the Lord of the Rings films (and I am the first to admit that you have the majority on yoru side in this regard). And I do apologize on rereading that my blanket statement on Wajda and Eisenstein sounded as if I considered all their films propaganda, which I do not. Just as Eisenstein made a number of films that were not, so did Wajda. Just as Del Toro has made films that are arguably communist propaganda (though in his regard, only those who already know their history are likely to recognize any attempt to sway their opinion), not all his films are so.
And unforunately for history, Battleship Potemkin is brilliant cinema (I would argue Triumph of the Will is as well, but that is more arguable). A movie can be propaganda and still be a great film, look at Casablanca (which was envisioned as pro-American propaganda and made during World War II). The delineation is unnecessary. The ultimate testament to its brilliance is that director’s keep cribbing shots and sequences from it, and the use of cut-ins during the scene on the Odessa steps remains the benchmark for how such sequences are done. Birth of a Nation, the film which is credited with having such an influence on these shots, is another great film that is ultimately unfairly derided for its message, rather than on its own merits.
wfon 20 Aug 2008 at 12:54 am 61Bill, you are quite right about The Lord of the Rings - one could add the mishandling of the character of Denethor and the Palantirs and on and on. I like them for the generally inspired casting, beautiful visuals and score, and because while they go wrong in many ways, they could have gone wrong in many, many more. If I were Kig we´d see new attempts at LotR every year - just like they stage plays and operas again and again - until they get it perfectly right, but I´m not and we may never see a better adapation to film than Jackson´s.
As for judging propaganda films on their own merit, it´s an argument. I have a hard time doing that. They are in the end just movies and the bloody reality is so much more powerful. Political views are unimportant? Art trumps life? Only here and now and in your head it does. Not when these were made. How about movies that got people murdered, like “Jud Suess”?
Billon 20 Aug 2008 at 7:46 am 62To wf:
Excellent point on Jud Seuss, wf. Having spend my entire life in the United States, it is easy to forget the particularly virulent propaganda films that have had such an invidious effect on many people. The worst we have to contend with are films such as An Inconvenient Truth and Fahrenheit 9/11. These do share an unfortunate aspect with Jud Seuss, however, something absent from both the films of del Toro and Eisenstein; the filmmakers directly present lies that they know to be false in order to mislead the viewer. Jud Seuss at least tells a story, unlike the other two, but when a film has no artistic merit, only the strength of its deception to recommend it, then as a society we must draw the line. The best films underline the truths of the human condition, even while being products of their time and era, something which cannot be said of films such as Jud Seuss. Jud Seuss was nothing more than a Dr. Mabuse film, with the inspiration sucked out and replaced with propaganda, as near as I can tell. I do delineate between films which have propagandistic aspects and films which are nothing more than propaganda, because the latter sacrifice their artistry for their message. This makes them bad films, separate from their messages. It is this aspect that makes us judge these movies poorly, moreso than their message. Comparing Jews to rats is not simply unacceptable from a moral standpoint, it is ridiculous from a cinematic one (though the concept of metaphor can still work, as demonstrated by Maus). Perhaps this is simply a byproduct of growing up in a country where life is easy, where what is right and what is good can still be synonymous, and with never having to confront evil directly. I am still young, and though the threat of Soviet Russia was a part of my household as a child, by the time I reached my teens the Soviet Union was no more. It always easier to evaluate such things from safety, to apply an intellectual rather than an emotional reading. It is the same danger that has led so many college students to Marxism. And perhaps it is also a byproduct of giving too much credit to my fellow man, to believe that he is able to separate content from context, and to appreciate them separately, despite my having been proven wrong on many occasions in history. Anyway, I have appreciated this discussion very much, and I appreciate people who are willing to espouse opinions on subjects, and justify those opinions. Happy movie watching!
Plissken79on 20 Aug 2008 at 9:17 pm 63Um, Bill, there was no massacre of demonstrators by Cossack regiments on the Odessa steps during the 1905 revolution in Russia (although there was a mutiny on the Battleship Potemkin). The devout Communist Sergei Eisenstein knew this, but put it into the film anyway for propaganda effect.
So Eisenstein was a brilliant propagandist, and Battleship Potemkin is one of the most significant films in cinema history, that is not in dispute. But like all propagandists for totalitarian regimes, Eisenstein was a liar as well. Live with it.