Part 4: Prop 8 Bullies, er, Thought Police, yup, Protesters — Target Restaurant Owner
Posted by Dirty Harry on Friday, November 14th, 2008
And to think I was conflicted over my vote to support Prop. 8.
Well lemme tell ya’, next time I’ll vote against gay marriage with a smile on my face and a song in my heart.
And not only will I vote against gay marriage, I will donate as much money as I can and tirelessly use this site to do whatever I can.
Violence, intimidation, and McCarthyism cannot be rewarded.
And those in the gay community and liberal Hollywood not speaking out against these outrages are just as guilty as the vandals, blacklisters, thought police, and terrorists.
Is it safe?
Is it safe?
Is. It. Safe.
In a dramatic, closed door meeting, the owner of a renowned Mexican eatery in Hollywood expressed regret in her decision to donate $100 to the “Yes on Prop 8? campaign, but her remarks before a group of about 60 members of Los Angeles’ LGBT community fell short of an outright personal apology.
“I’m sick of heart that I’ve offended anyone in the gay community,” said Marjorie Christoffersen, co-owner of El Coyote Mexican Cafe for 17 years. “I have had, and do have family, friends, and people I work with of course who are gay…and you are treasured people to me.”
You’ll want to read the whole post.
And you’ll want to make sure to stop in and support this restaurant the next time you’re in town..
Hat tip: Ace- who has his own thoughts.
Filed in General |
Johnny Ed's Babyon 14 Nov 2008 at 5:25 pm 1At least the Communists let people make a public apology for going against the Party.
Not good enough for these fascists though.
The_Rickon 14 Nov 2008 at 5:30 pm 2Luckily, I don’t live in California (And I LOVE the song “Aenima” by TOOL)
So tell me, are there really this many of the gays down there, or do people just really love the gays.
I’m just amazed that such a small minority could have so much power to destroy businesses and individuals.
San Diego Bobon 14 Nov 2008 at 5:31 pm 3Sounds like Chinese self-criticism during the Cultural Revolution.
BoffoTMCon 14 Nov 2008 at 5:34 pm 4Maybe I’m misremembering my history, but didn’t the Stalin era Soviet Union execute gays?
So I guess the opinion of Hollywood is:
- Blacklisted those who think gays shouldn’t be allowed to marry: Perfectly acceptable.
- Blacklisting those who think gays shouldn’t be allowed to live: 10 times worse than Hitler, and nearly as bad as George W. Bush.
Splashon 14 Nov 2008 at 5:35 pm 5And have you seen the footage of how they abused that little old lady in Palm Springs? Unbelievable.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VziklUbtHAE
They want to push? They’d better be ready to get pushed back.
Stephanieon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:08 pm 6Sorry but I recently lost a good friend because I was being honest…and let me say this..this FRIEND was no friend. If you cannot be honest and who you are then whatev! Why should she apologize? WHY? Someone..answer me that? WHY?
maatkareon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:11 pm 7I quite honestly voted against prop 8, but the reactions are going over the top. Really disgraceful. Still, issue aside, El Coyote is a disgusting dive. It’s not a gay hangout, but it’s a landmark that has attracted a wide swath of L.A. over the decades. (and is also close to the New Beverly Theater, a grungy movie theater known for showing only revivals) El Coyote is somehow known for the margaritas, which aren’t even that great, but is definitely known for the ATROCIOUS quality of the food. So go there if you want to make a point, God bless you, but it really is gross.
Kateon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:15 pm 8I’ve said it before and I’m going to say it again - suck it up, get over it and find something useful to do with your time. Why does this matter to you? Why do you care who marries whom? You don’t have to be there for the honeymoon - so mind your own business and lighten up. Good Lord, are your lives really so boring that you have to get up in arms over what other people do in their private lives?
RufusTon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:20 pm 9Kate,
Harry et al aren’t the ones having trouble “getting over it.” The people of California have spoken through a very legal and proper process. They are done with the issue but the losers will not accept the results of the election and “let it go.” Who is protesting? Who is not accepting the majority vote of their compatriots?
Harry is merely holding a mirror up to the immature, self-centered and non-democratic actions of those who refuse to accept a law they oppose.
RufusTon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:31 pm 10Harry,
Thank you for the series of posts you have done on this issue. I do not believe you are using hyperbole when you compare this to the communist blacklist and you have brilliantly shown just how hypocritical so many of these folks are.
There is a saying that you do not truly believe in freedom of speech until you are willing to support the right of someone to speak out against something you disagree with. We can also say you do not truly believe in freedom and democracy unless you are willing to accept laws, rules and regulations you disagree with that are supported by a majority of your countrymen.
It would be much easier for you to keep quiet on this issue. Your outspoken posts on this topic can quite possibly impact your ability to get future work and earn a living. Thank you for not taking the easy path. What an abysmal shame that there is almost no one else in your industry with the balls to do the same.
To paraphrase Martin Niemöller: “When they came for those who exercised their free right to donate to a political cause I did not speak out because it was not a cause I supported…”
Johnny Ed's Babyon 14 Nov 2008 at 6:33 pm 11Kate:
We are over it - the opponents of Prop 8 are the ones that can’t get over it.
There are studies of Scandinavian countries where marriage rates have dropped off a cliff after ssm was legalized and a majority of children are born out of wedlock. Whether or not you think this is an okay cost, it can be part of an honest debate.
Society has drawn all sorts of lines about marriage - brother/sister, cousin/cousin, parent/child, no polygamy etc. Proponents of ssm have never argued to my satisfaction why the line should be moved past ssm and no further.
The Almighty Turtleon 14 Nov 2008 at 7:09 pm 12My main issue with the opponents of Prop 8 was not the Gay Marriage issue- which I support- It was the idea of having a Court fiat against religious groups forcing them to conform in an issue with no criminal factor in it.
Because, while I accept the Left’s argument that Church and State must be kept separate to prevent religion from intruding on the Secular nature of government, I also accept the inverse: that Church and Sate must be kept separate to protect private religious practice from the invasive influence of the Government.
That is why I supported Prop 8. No more, no less.
Hell, I would be one of the ones cheering if the conflict between the Church and Gay Marriage advocates gets resolved satisfactorily for both sides. But using the government to strongarm one of the parties is NOT the answer, and could lead to more troubles down the line.
And, no, the thuggish behavior of some Prop 8 opponents will not influence my thoughts whatsoever. Because I happen to know a few Homosexuals. And, while some of them are scum, a few of the others are some of the best people I have ever known. I also know a few people who have been harassed by Prop 8 Opponents. Some of them were actual trash who said and acted in an unprintable manner and got more-or-less what was coming to them. Most, however, were inoffensive, principled people who were attacked by the roving thugs.
So, I will not be swayed one way or the other. Both sides have their scum, but that doesn’t mean their actions will affect my outlook on the issue.
Jack Marinoon 14 Nov 2008 at 7:11 pm 13The people of California have spoken and the Constitution of Cali has been changed and its done. These spoiled people think they can rule over the majority and this is a sign of a complete disregard of constitutional republic within a democratic process. The majority has the right to set standards for society as long as these standards are constitutional. The gays are trying to make this a civil rights issue and they can’t. They have all the rights married people have in civil unions. This is about corrupting the religious aspect of marriage. This is an attack on all religions and as more radical leftist judges appointed by the sick democratic party, and they rule over our wished in a tyrannical way and allow gay marriages and none of these marriages are legal. People in Mass and Conn and California their marriages are not legal no matter what the courts say or what the Mayor says or what the computer print out of a phony marriage certificate. Even if it has the state seal on it. It means nothing and when these couples move to any other state, that state doesn’t recognized or sanction gay marriages. What is going to happen, with these gay militants trying to shove this down the country’s throat, the people will demand that congress pass an amendment to the US Constitution like we did with prohibition. The people will not allow, especially Black Americans who have been struggling for their civil rights since 1865 to allow this ‘lifestyle’ to become on the same equal status as allowing them get rid of Jim Crow.
I came home from work tonight and on Sunset Blvd. in from of the CNN building there were a few hundred Gays yelling, holding up signs causing a traffic jam protesting the vote on 8.
The signs I saw were, ‘Mormons breed gays” “Now we are on the back of the bus” ” Gay rights = Civil Rights”
This is only going to piss of people of faith and once an amendment is put into the constitution it is a done deal.
Mr Sideouson 14 Nov 2008 at 7:27 pm 14El Coyote is an historical landmark in LA. When I read this article, I wanted to go there for dinner, and throw guacamole at the gays throwing hissy fits outside.
Kiton 14 Nov 2008 at 7:32 pm 15If the gay rights groups continue these methods, there WILL be a Federal Marriage Amendment.
And I am against FMA.
Danielon 14 Nov 2008 at 7:34 pm 16I seem to recall predictions of riots and “blood in the streets” if Obama lost.
Well, the anti-Prop 8 folks lost.
And what do we have?
Riots
and
Blood in the Streets (OK, that one is somewhat tongue in cheek, but it is only a matter of time before it gets much worse)
Amazing how prescient some washed up hacks can be when it comes to predicting what Left-wing mobs will do.
Tink in Calion 14 Nov 2008 at 8:02 pm 17I am confused by the reaction to this issue now as compared with the lack of reaction to the ballot measure four years ago. I don’t recall any kind of blowback then, but maybe it was because these wackjobs did not have anyone specific to protest against. Since the left’s favorite group to hate (the Christians) were the main backers of the amendment, they can have a specific target (except any of the PC establishment of course - besides the omission of any black or hispanic targets, there are no Muslim targets either and we all know how pro-homosexual rights they are) persecute. With the donation information easily attainable, they can now start eating their young as well.
Ain’t intolerance grand?
Jonnyon 14 Nov 2008 at 8:08 pm 18Kate’s telling us to get over it?
Get over what?
The people have spoken. For us, it is over and done with. Now someone needs to send a clue to the unruly few running around out there bullying elderly couples and threatening churches and establishments.
So things didn’t turn out the way you liked. Lot of that going around. You should direct your advice to the militant goons running around like thugs…tell them to “suck it up” and learn to deal with it.
And another thing, when a bunch of animals run around and behave like terrorists you’re damn right I (we) are going to say something about it. Be they militant gays, islamofacists, or white supremacist goons threatening the president-elect, they cross that line then they deserve all the criticism they get.
MovieBobon 14 Nov 2008 at 8:48 pm 19Obviously, outright violence and thuggishness (ACTUAL thugishness, not just aggression that people CALL thuggishness to intimidate via abuse of the language) have to be condemned, and I condemn such acts without reservation.
However…
“Yes on 8″ supporters need to sprout either a pair, a clue or all three if they’re truly “surprised” or “saddened” that their gay fellow citizens are pissed off at them right now. This is not ONLY about one’s personal opinion about “the lifestyle.”
Proposition 8 was not some LA Times opinion-dynamics poll about your thoughts on the subject of homosexuality. It was an ammendment to the law that has consequences - it EFFECTS people. You’re not catching blowback because of your beliefs about homosexuals, you’re catching blowback because the day before the election your gay and lesbian fellow citizens had something and YOU voted to take it away from them. When something is taken away from someone, that someone is generally MAD about it - especially if they feel the rationale for the taking is unjust.
I’m friends with A LOT of people who fundamentally disagree with me on profound issues. In fact, ALL of my friends are people who disagree with me on profound issues to one degree or another. Y’know what my friends ALL have in common, though? Every single one? NONE of them have ever tried to take something away from me or negatively impact my life knowingly. If they did, they would not be my friends - friends don’t do that to one another.
I have many friends, for example, who are vegans. They find my eating of meat and my wearing of wool and leather clothing items to be wrong if not outright sinful. We disagree on this, but we are friends. The day one of them takes the burger from my hand or votes Yes on a law that renders meat-eating illegal we will be enemies. It’s not complicated.
This is only “surprising” or “complicated” for you because thsi blowback is the first time any of this has been “REAL” on your end. Until your gay aquaintances finally had enough of your parsing, this was all an academic/philosophical thing for YOUR side - you were never gaining or losing anything. Even when MA and CA legalized the marriages, you didn’t “lose” anything other than an argument. For your gay friends, this was always about real tangible effects, benefits and losses to REAL tangible human beings… for you, at best, it was about theoretical effects on vaporous and ethereal concepts like “society,” “community,” “virtue” and whatever. For them it was REAL. They had something FOR REAL. You took it away FOR REAL. They are REAL mad at you.
And they ought to be.
The Almighty Turtleon 14 Nov 2008 at 8:54 pm 20Have these protesters ever noticed that not everybody who voted against Prop 8 hates gays?
For example, I actually SUPPORT Gay Marriage. However, I OPPOSE the idea of imposing it via court fiat against the consent of the Churches involved. Call me old fashioned, but I have long felt that, while it is true that Church and State must be divided to prevent Religion creeping into areas that are the rightful jurisdiction of the Secular state, Church and State must also be divided to prevent the State from dominating religion. And this is a case that falls in the latter category.
I would be one of those cheering if there was a mutually-satisfactory result for both the Churches and the Gay Marriage advocates. However, the idea that one group can use the government to strongarm the other is something that does not sit well with me, having studied the effects that an intrusive government can have to freedom of religion.
But, no. There are no other factors at play here. We all just hate gays.
Sickening.
But it will not change my opinion one iota.
The Almighty Turtleon 14 Nov 2008 at 8:58 pm 21D*mn the filter.
The Almighty Turtleon 14 Nov 2008 at 8:59 pm 22“who voted against Prop 8 hates gays?”
FOR, not against. That thing was a bit confusing.
The Ugly Americanon 14 Nov 2008 at 9:21 pm 23I plan on going for dinner tomorrow night.
I’m thinking of wearing sunglasses, doing the red carpet smile & wave and blowing kisses to the crowd as I enter.
I only pray the LAPD is there because if even one of these protesters come at me, they’re going to eating their cardboard sign.
Just in case, I think I’ll bring my pepper spray and a giant cross.
maatkareon 14 Nov 2008 at 10:02 pm 24Actually, Jack Marino, Black Americans started looking for their civil rights around 1700 what with the chains and the whipping and stuff.
Here’s the thing about the whole initiative process: apparently you can’t really amend the California Constitution by initiative–it has to go through the legislature. So Prop 8 might be overturned in the courts anyway. Also, if the will of the people trumps everything, why can’t We the Citizens pass initiatives to never pay taxes? Or everyone gets a free house? Or more cupcakes? Or puppies? I’ve always thought the initiative process was a little strange, even when I agreed with them. The Governator tried to push a bunch of initiatives through and most crashed and burned. Proposition 187, which denied social services to illegal immigrants, was knocked down in court, and a lot of institutions have done an end run around Prop 209 (the anti-affirmative action one) by shifting criteria from race to economic background. All that is to say, the will of the people doesn’t always hold up in court.
And don’t eat the food at El Coyote.
Tink in Calion 14 Nov 2008 at 10:03 pm 25Following MovieBob’s logic, the protesters should be demonstrating against and blacklisting Mayor Gavin Newsom and the Judges who changed the laws and subverted the previous will of the people who live in this state. If they had not given by fiat what was not theirs to give, then perhaps the protesters would not feel persecuted (or whatever they feel) over having “lost” something.
And “my pair” is doing just fine, thank you. I guess hoping that others behave admirably when disappointed as I do (and everyone else I know) is just to much to ask. Maybe if they were taking the high road now, no matter how angry they are, they would get what they want in the future. However, these temper tantrums are just pushing it farther away. FOR REAL.
Jack Marinoon 14 Nov 2008 at 11:08 pm 26Maatkare, remember America didn’t become a republic until 1789. So the years before July 4 1776 we were under British rule with the Union Jack as our flag. The British, the Dutch the Spaniards all brought slaves here to the new world. By the time America became a free nation, after 8 years of war with England, slavery was part of the economy in the south. The Founders knew that putting in the bill of rights which they knew the next generation or two would vote out slavery. I don’t think they envisioned a civil war almost 75 years later.
The modern civil rights movement started after Dec 7, 41 when a lot of blacks from the south moves up north and west to the war plants. Even FDR issued a statement that we all have to put aside our prejudices because of a common enemy. MLK was a young man during the war and it was his generation that was part of that movement which he started in the 50s and 60s and he ended it. He saved this nation with his life, just as Lincoln did.
MovieBobon 14 Nov 2008 at 11:11 pm 27Tink
” I guess hoping that others behave admirably when disappointed as I do (and everyone else I know) is just to much to ask.”
They are more than merely “dissapointed,” man… something was TAKEN from them. When was the last time this happened to you? Honestly, now. When was the last time you went to bed having something, then woke up the next day to find that your fellow citizens had voted to strip you of it? Have you EVER known what that’s like? I can tell you I haven’t… I’m under-30, straight and white as a ghost… but I can imagine I’d be pretty damn far beyond “dissapointed.”
Jack Marinoon 14 Nov 2008 at 11:19 pm 28By the way, I love that shot of Oliver as the Nazi in Marathon Man
Tink in Calion 14 Nov 2008 at 11:38 pm 29MovieBob:
And if you were far beyond disappointed what would you do? Would you seethe and rage in public and disrupt people in worship and take something from an old woman and stomp on it?
I have had things taken from me, not by election, but by others who were unjustified and unfair. And I did none of those things to them, even if I was sure they deserved it. I was shocked and upset and rattled for a while and then I changed what I could and moved on and planned better for next time.
I can see your point and why the protesters are infuriated, but I still contend that their behavior is unhinged and irrational and hurtful to themselves and their cause. And they are just convincing more and more fencesitters (like DH and The Almighty Turtle) that they voted the right way and they will never change it future. Can you see that?
Inklingon 15 Nov 2008 at 1:30 am 30I for one am outraged by one thing — maatkare insulted the margaritas and food at El Coyote. El Chokey (as my friends and I affectionately call it) may not sport a Michelin star. But it is one of the most entertaining places to suck down margaritas (always ask from scratch) and combo plates. Sure, it isn’t the Border Grill, but it’s decent food at great prices, and the margaritas are strong. A great place to meet friends for booze and grub, and the scene is an interesting mix of hipsters, rockers, and yes, lots of gays.
If El Coyote loses their gay clientele, it will be a major blow to their business. I’d estimate they make up about a third. Well, I guess the rest of us are just going to have to take up the slack. Ugly American, I can’t go Saturday night, but maybe during the week?
I hereby announce, an El Coyote buycott! Conservatives, unite! You have nothing to lose but your sobriety!
Mike Kriskeyon 15 Nov 2008 at 5:26 am 31I am coming more and more to believe that the DSM should never have been amended.
Sharon Fergusonon 15 Nov 2008 at 6:20 am 32I find it disingenuous for people to get mad about something being “taken” from them when it was never theirs in the first place. They make think that they’ve come into possession ground and language that guarantees them something that isnt theirs, but its a lie they’ve been getting heady over for much too long. There is nothing legally preventing them from having the kind of life they want to lead, but when they start using the same laws that protect me to hurt me and to make me crouch in fear, the loss they feel isnt one that was enforced on them. They lost it because they let go of it. So MovieBob, stop putting the blame on those who voted for the proposition. If you feel like the gays have been f*cked, its because they contorted themselves and lost their grip, not because someone else did to them.
Jonnyon 15 Nov 2008 at 7:29 am 33Let’s pretend for a moment that Sharon is wrong (she’s not) and the gays did have something taken from them.
That still doesn’t excuse the immature few running around like asshats tearing stuff up.
I don’t see anybody in here making excuses for Tim McVeigh or Eric Rudolph (though I’m sure there are morons out there who would). There’s no excuse for them. They’re scum…worse than the militant gays, in fact.
In the end, it’s all about personal responsibility and accountability. Sadly, more and more that’s being replaced by blind (I stress BLIND) compassion and understanding.
Tommy Von 15 Nov 2008 at 8:59 am 34MovieBob:
We’re kind of on the same side here, as I’m for gay marriage and would have voted against Prop 8 if I still lived in LA…
But this notion that something was TAKEN from them is a little over dramatic. One of, if the not the primary debate, was whether the courts had the power and the right to do what they did. People in California said they did not.
Homosexuals did not have the right to marriage for their lifetime and then suddenly lost it.
They had it for a few months and they knew it was tenuous at best and that the court had likely over-reached.
I think voting for Prop 9 was going to have some blowback and I believe gays need to fight for their rights because it’s clear they’re not recognized as rights by the general population…
But I am very uncomfortable with the actions of the last week. Good people can disagree on this issue because there is serious dispute on the legal status of homosexuality, and gays consistently seem to be their own worst enemy in the PR department.
I am convinced that the San Francisco teacher who had her students attend her lesbian wedding was the death blow to gay marriage this time around.
I think gay marriage will be far more likely when the gay community shows that it will respect the feelings of those who would like it to remain a mature subject for adults, and not some invasion into the culture trying to make up for lost time and age-old hostility.
The recent actions I’m afraid will do even more damage than that teacher.
wfon 15 Nov 2008 at 9:16 am 35Perhaps these fanatics are part of MovieBob´s “98 percent that are crap.” I bet they like Michael Bay´s work, too.
2keyboardson 15 Nov 2008 at 9:18 am 36How can you say that something was taken from the gays? It was never theirs to begin with. 2 years ago, Californians passed an initiative to limit marriage to a man and a woman. The will of the people was overturned by a court of law. They had their voices and votes TAKEN away by that court of law. Did they protest violently? No. They reorganized, and came back stronger for 2008. They didn’t use terrorist tactics to try and force everyone to listen to them.
maatkareon 15 Nov 2008 at 10:00 am 37Inkling, I stand by my view that El Coyote’s food royally sucks.
It’s held on because of what makes America great: Cheap Booze. (I don’t particularly care for the Border Grill. I prefer El Cholo. Or El Pinto in Albuquerque. But I digress.)
Joe Marino, I’m simply stating that blacks didn’t wake up in 1965 and decided things needed changing. It’s been an ongoing process that peaked with the Civil Rights movement, but blacks were fighting for freedom since American’s birth. (re-read that ragged Frederick Douglass autobiography you haven’t cracked since grade school.
)
Anyway, I hope the protesters turn their energy towards helping the fire victims in SoCal this weekend.
wfon 15 Nov 2008 at 10:07 am 38Anyway, I hope the protesters turn their energy towards helping the fire victims in SoCal this weekend.
That´s some deadly sarcasm there, maatkare.
Danielon 15 Nov 2008 at 10:21 am 39MovieBob, absolutely nothing was taken from the anti-Prop 8 Bigots.
Civil Unions was California State Law before Same-Sex Marriage was forced down Californians throats by FOUR judges. And it is still California State Law. Proposition 8 did nothing to change that.
And claiming that you have friends that disagree with you does nothing to ameliorate the fact that these liberal fascists are killing the careers of people who hold differing political beliefs.
Whenever I read something like, “I condemn such acts without reservation. However…
I know that I am going to get some ridiculous rationalization for the acts that that person just said they condemned.
And that is exactly what we got in comment #19. “Until your gay acquaintances finally had enough of your parsing, this was all an academic/philosophical thing for YOUR side - you were never gaining or losing anything.”
Translation, “All of those who voted for Prop 8 deserve to lose your livelihood, business, career, freedom to go wherever and whenever you choose without being molested, because “your gay acquaintances finally had enough”.
To paraphrase: “First they came for the Jews, and I justified it because I didn’t like the Jews either.”
moviebobon 15 Nov 2008 at 10:24 am 40Tink
“And if you were far beyond disappointed what would you do? Would you seethe and rage in public and disrupt people in worship and take something from an old woman and stomp on it?”
I’ve been known to do some pretty harsh things when I’ve been wronged, so I really can’t tell you definatively. AGAIN, I’m not saying I’m “down” with the actions, just that I’m not going to pretend like I don’t get where it’s coming from. This has ceased to be a philosophical/legal debate - it’s a FIGHT now, and the people having a cow right now are only reacting to a first punch thrown at them.
Tommy
“But this notion that something was TAKEN from them is a little over dramatic. One of, if the not the primary debate, was whether the courts had the power and the right to do what they did. People in California said they did not.”
But that’s the problem… They didn’t merely go to the polls and vote to slap the courts on the wrist and say “naughty judges, don’t do that again!” This wasn’t an opinion poll, it was an ammendment with real reprecussions for the people involved. And regardless of whether or not you ever agreed with them having the right, they DID have it and now they don’t. Plenty of people probably don’t think I “deserve” to have my car, but if they try and take it from me there’s gonna be a scuffle.
Tommy Von 15 Nov 2008 at 10:44 am 41MovieBob:
I’m afraid your histrionics continue. Gay marriage and car ownership? Really? That’s the best metaphor you could come up? Wouldn’t it have been better to wait 30 seconds and come up with something else?
To use your car metaphor, it’s more akin to someone giving you a car, only to discover it wasn’t their car to give to you and now you’re throwing a temper-tantrum screaming, “but he gave it to me.”
(This is not to suggest that your car metaphor was anything but horrible, by the way)
You want to argue semantics as to whether something was “taken” from , that’s fine, but as usual you’re arguing in your own little world and judging how convincing you are based on your ability to convince yourself.
But I think you’re far more susceptible to the rationalizations of your desired conclusions than most.
Not to mention I never like the insincere, “yes, they’re acting horrible’ followed by the “but they have a right to be”.
As I write this, I ask myself why the hell I even have these conversations with you. You always defend any remark you make no matter how ill-considered or off the mark. It’s just a long drawn our exchange that goes nowhere.
The Almighty Turtleon 15 Nov 2008 at 3:28 pm 42Tink:
“The Almighty Turtle) that they voted the right way and they will never change it future.”
Well, I appreciate the sentiment, but their behavior will almost certainly not alter my vote whatsoever. My main issue regarding Prop 8 was the government fiat overruling the will of the Churches in a private religious matter. That issue is what caused me to vote yes on Prop 8 and will cause me to shoot down any similar attempts by EITHER side to get the government to strongarm their opponents.
Personally, it is my opinion that the Churches and the SSM advocates sit down and hammer out a compromise on the issue.
That being said, that doesn’t mean my opinion has completely been unaltered, as the thuggish behavior of some Prop 8 opponents is certainly undermining their moral credit on the issue. Will that change affect my vote? No. But it will affect my perception and position of the talks and the Prop 8 opponent’s place in such.
moviebobon 16 Nov 2008 at 3:45 pm 43Tommy
“I’m afraid your histrionics continue. Gay marriage and car ownership? Really? That’s the best metaphor you could come up?”
My car is the only thing I have that someone might concievably try to take by force
“But I think you’re far more susceptible to the rationalizations of your desired conclusions than most.”
Oh, I don’t expect to sway anybody one way or another on issues like this. Really, it’s more a matter of A.) Having fun swatting at the beehive and B.) Establishing as a matter of record (and personal validation) that when THIS particular fight over rights was going down, I was on the side that got soaked rather than the side that worked the firehoses. I so seldom actually get to be the good guy, I like to enjoy it when I can.
The plain fact is, the two sides here (and however you want to parse it with “marriage no, unions yes” or “I’m REALLY just mad about lawmaking procedure” at the end of the day there really are ONLY two sides) largely at an impasse if not outright arguing past one-another. Those against Prop 8 and it’s attendant philosophy are, for the most part, on the side of reason, practicality and the REAL situations of and effects upon REAL people. Those FOR it - whatever some of them are they’re telling themselves to help with the whole sleeping/looking-in-the-mirror thing - are acting not out of logic or rationality but out of concerns for ephemeral philosophical concerns like “society,” “community,” “values,” and the most vaporous and irrelevant of all “belief.”